I have no probs tuning the strings to each other, but I've tried many different ways to gut the low "E" string set. Tuning fork, Piano, Electriconic Tuner, This site, etc. Only thing is, I'm never sure if I'm exactly on. Any ideas?

Also, what exactly is "Intonation" and how is it set? I assume it's done with the adjustments on the "Tune-o-Matic" bridge on my Epiphone Les Paul. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

John

..."beats" - it's subtle, but you have to listen carefully for the "beats" (slight warble in tones when two tones are not perfectly vibrating at exactly the same frequency)...when the "beating" goes away, the two tones are "in pitch."

..."intonation" -  is actually the adjustment of the "string LENGTH," via 'forward/backward' adjustment of that strings bridge saddle, such that the "open" tone (say E6-string) and its octave (say fret 12 on E6-string) produce no "beats" (or warbles).

...so "how" you might ask does one simultaneously compare "open and "fretted" tones on the same string? Simple, instead of actually "fretting" the string at fret 12 for the octave tone, you "chime" it by lightly touching the string exactly over the 12th fret (called a 'node') while plucking it...this "forces" the string to simultaneously vibrate in both "full-length" (bridge-to-nut = open) and "octave" (bridge-to-node = octave) or halflength. Adjust the bridge saddle until there's NO beating when this "chiming" is done.

OTM - You rock!

I know about the "beats" and I use the harmonics (5th/6th fret) to tune string-to-string. Are you saying to use the harmonics at the 12th fret to set the string length? If so, are all the strings done there or do you move down the neck 1 fret on the G string like you do when tuning string-to-string?

Thanks

...each string is done individually, and I use a regular guitar "tuner" to check/comapre the fretted-12 octave note against the "chimed" 12th-fret harmonic...when I get NO difference (ie: no change in needle positon), I know the intonation is correctly set for that string...and, then move over to the next string.

Do string sizes/changes make a difference?

Shamdog wrote:

Do string sizes/changes make a difference?

...actaully, "yes," especially when either: (a) string diameter/gauge (0.011" to 0.009" etc.) or (b) string type (round-wound to flat-wound) are changed.

...going down in gauge (ie: 0.011" to 0.009") will typically require the intonation LENGTH (nut-to-bridge) to be made SHORTER...and, conversely, made LONGER when going up in gauge (0.009" to 0.011").

...also, going from round-wound to either ground-wound or flat-wounds of same diameter gauge will typically require the intonation LENGTH to be LENGTHENED, because the mass of the strings increases, which is why "wound" bass strings need longer spans (nut-to-bridge) than do the "plain" treble strings even though the average string scale length remains the same (~25.5" Fender and ~24.75" for Gibson, etc.).

OTM -

I'm just getting back to this after a long lay-off. One more question, please.

What are the symptoms of a guitar that is out of intonation? What does it sound like?

...typically, if it "plays/frets" OK down at nut, but not at 12th fret and gets progressively "worse" sounding as you go up the neck...that's a good indication of intonation problems.

...quick-n-dirty "check" is to chime the open E1-string then at 12th fret...if OK, then other strings probably are OK too...but NOT always true, especially if you've just changed strings and used DFFERENT guage strings...notibly the G3-string, from plain to wound and vice-versa!

Thanks...Unfortunately, I wouldn't know what "Worse" sounding would be like. Not so sure I know what "Good" sounding is, for that matter.

...ah, yes, trying to describe "tone" the the deaf man is akin to describing "colors" to the blind man.

Ok, so here's the way I understand what you're saying:

I hit the open string and then "Chime" it at the 12th fret. Should be no warbling of the 2 tones. Is that right?

correct.

Hi, new player of 4 months.  I've managed to get through most of the posts except the magnas on chord bulding. 

I'm not clear on the intonation aspect.  I understand the instruction on how to chime, I'm just not sure my old gray head can tell the difference on a warble or not.  At any rate, here is what I see.  This is on an Ibanez hollow-body (AFS75TD if it makes a difference) and using a Korg tuner (CA-30) plugged into the guitar.

I tune the open strings and get a perfect green light on each string.
I fret the 12th and get pretty close to center green on e, B, G however, D A E are all sharp by about +15 to +20.
I fret and pluck at 5th and a couple of other notes both before and after 12th.  All strings are measured on the tuner as sharp by a range of about +8 to +22.

1.  Is this an intonation issue that the strings don't produce a consistant note through-out?
2.  Is it important, i.e. does it need to be fixed at some point?
3.  Is it fixable?  I'm guessing that you use the little roller things on the bridge to make the adjustment if it is.

At this point in my skill level I'm sure it doesn't make a whit of differnce to what sounds I produce or hear but I suffer from that need to know everythig gene

...have you tried turning the VOL and TONE controls "wide-open" so the largest, cleanest signal is going to the Tuner? That often helps.

...INTONATION is a combination of two physical things: (1) the string LENGTH or distance between NUT and BRIDGE and (2) a slight string "stretch" that pulls the string slightly SHARP when the string(s) are depressed to the fingerboard.

...item #1 is being 'tested' when you chime the string over the 12th fret, because the string isn't being depressed, you're actually checking only its "open" frequency...which is part #1 of the two parts.

...but, when you depress the string at fret 12 and compare its frequency with the chimed frequency, you're actually comparing apples-to-apples, because the chime freq is LENGTH only while the 12 fretting includes string-stretching during fretting.

...make sense?

Opening volume and tone make no discernable difference.  Your comments makes a certain amount of sense.  It never occured to me that string stretch when fretting would change the pitch (is it pitch we're talking about?), some how I just assumed that guitar designers included a factor for that in their creations.  The question remains for future considereration of whether or not I need to be concerned about the differences in pitch when fretted at 12th for thin strings or wound strings since the wound seem to have a greater variance from the true note.

Perhaps my bottom line should be that a long time player such as youself is not concerned about such a variance, therefore I need to forget it.

Thanks for your insights OTM.

JJ

...FWIW -- I too am a "stickler" for exact intonation, especially with jazz chords!

...that's "why" my Tele has six, individually-adjustable saddles, instead of the period correct 2x3 brass saddles. I check tuning every time I pickup the guitar to play, but I also always use the SAME set of strings (ever since 1968), Fender 1550's (0.011"-0.048") with wound 3rd/G-string...I like their "ground-wound" feel = compromise between tone of round-wounds and smoothness of flat-wounds.