Hey everyone,
I have had some great help with most of ya'll in the Beginner Forum here and it has been very helpful! And I am of course a beginner with a beginner question about a particular chord...
Heres where the confusion comes in:
I bought "Mel Bay's Guitar Chords" book today... So I'm looking through it, and one of the chords I've had to use quite a lot lately is Bminor.... Anyways!
Here on chordbook.com in the Interactive Guitar Chord finder... The Bminor is different from the Bminor in this book!!!!
And I am positive I am comparing the right ones
and I have looked on other websites to cross-reference
and I cannot even find this to be a variation of any Bminor chords!

Ok the one in the book is:

2nd, 3rd & 4th Fret
F# (2nd Fret-E-String), D (3rd Fret-B-String), B (4th Fret-G-String), F# (4th Fret-D-String)

or in Tablature:

      * *  * *
E A D G B E
__________  1st Fret
_________X  2nd Fret
________X_  3rd Fret
____XX____  4th Fret
(Sorry for this poor representation of tablature!)

And the one on this website and on chorder.com is:

   * *  * * *
E A D G B E
__________  1st Fret
__X______X  2nd Fret
________X_  3rd Fret
____XX____  4th Fret

Which is the exact same as Mel Bays, except it adds the B note....
But if I am making a complete beginner error, plz forgive me, but is this perhaps a typo in the book? If not, can someone please explain to me why it is represented this way? Thanks everyone!!

Micha,

Both versions are correct. The one in the Mel Bay book is a simplified form of the Bm barr chord form.
If you go to the chord generator on this site and select a Bm chord, then click the inversions button, you will see several different ways to play the chord.  There are many different ways to play the chords on the guitar.  Check out the inversions of some of the chords you are familiar with.

Jim

PS. You will notice in the Mel Bay book that in his version, the low E and low A strings are not played.
There should be an X up top of the diagram above those two strings.

Thanks for clearing that up for me jaguar, that was seriously driving me crazy... All over one note lol....
And yeah I got to looking at Mel Bays book again and most every chord, the Low E and A are muted.... I didnt really notice a difference in sound between the two really.... But I'm in the beginner phase of asking the "why" question about everything, trying to soak all this up and understand it to the best of my ability... Sure I can play a couple of bars of some Guitar Tabs, but I couldn't tell you all the chords or scales or any fundamentals, but I am working on that!!! Thanks once again!

Hey! I just wanna pop in and say WELCOME !!

the extra B note doesn't make a difference to the chord.

the normal minor and major chords are made up of 3 notes.

in the case of B minor they are B, D and F#. the chord can have these notes repeated any number of times in the chord.

...in reality, you only need three notes (Root, 3rd and 5th) to create a (triad) CHORD; the addition of redundant notes, like the extra B in your example, only serve to make the chord sound fuller and lusher...nice, inventive, but not technically necessary...it'll still be the SAME chord.

...in fact, many jazz players seldom play more than four notes, even for the extended (9ths, 11ths and 13ths) or altered chords (±5 and ±9).

Hey thanks again for all this wonderful information! I gotta tell you guys, I have learned more about the fundamentals and music theory from posting and reading this forum than I have my whole life!
So let me ask a few more questions for further clarification if thats alright!!

guitarfreak:  Ok, you say the Bminor Chord is made up of B, D & F#.... So let me ask you, can I locate these three notes on the fretboard myself anywhere and so long as it is those three notes, that will be a BMinor Chord? For instance I'm looking at this print out I have above my computer monitor, it is a picture of a fretboard and ALL of the notes open and on each fret.... Ok;
9th Fret on the D string is a "B"
9th Fret on the A string is a "F#"
10th Fret on the Low E string is a "D"
So if I fret the above 3 notes in that position, is that a true B minor chord, just a variation of it?
(and I just picked that position out randomly, no reason in particular!)
Ok and my other question for you Teleman is:

You say 3 notes is all you need to make a Major or Minor Chord (TRIAD), that I have learned recently, and also one of the 3 notes MUST be the "root" note, which in the case of Bminor, the root note is "B", right?
Ok all that I understand, but heres where I get lost again:
Why are the other two notes refered to as the "3rd and 5th"... I have never understood that at all, but also I have never had anyone break it down for me logically! Anyways guys, I appreciate everyones help so much... My hands are really becoming extremely fluent on the fretboard!!!! I am noticing a ton of progress and man there is nothing I love more than playing my Music!!!! Anyways guys, I'm off to the living room to plug in the Ibanez RG this after-noon and get busy learning and memorizing some more scales from this book I bought the other day called:
"The Guitarist's Scale Book by: Peter Vogl"..
"A complete scale encyclopedia with over 400 scales & modes."
you can find it for sale at:
http://www.cvls.com/guitar_scales.html
I highly recommend this for all the beginners out there! It really breaks it down in a way you can easily understand, and besides, scales have really helped my hand-speed and to really get familiar with the guitar!! They are extremely useful for me when it comes to warming-up and exercises!!!
Alright guys, Ill check back later!!!

MicahNTX wrote:

Hey thanks again for all this wonderful information! I gotta tell you guys, I have learned more about the fundamentals and music theory from posting and reading this forum than I have my whole life!
So let me ask a few more questions for further clarification if thats alright!!

guitarfreak:  Ok, you say the Bminor Chord is made up of B, D & F#.... So let me ask you, can I locate these three notes on the fretboard myself anywhere and so long as it is those three notes, that will be a BMinor Chord? For instance I'm looking at this print out I have above my computer monitor, it is a picture of a fretboard and ALL of the notes open and on each fret.... Ok;
9th Fret on the D string is a "B"
9th Fret on the A string is a "F#"
10th Fret on the Low E string is a "D"
So if I fret the above 3 notes in that position, is that a true B minor chord, just a variation of it?
(and I just picked that position out randomly, no reason in particular!)
Ok and my other question for you Teleman is:

You say 3 notes is all you need to make a Major or Minor Chord (TRIAD), that I have learned recently, and also one of the 3 notes MUST be the "root" note, which in the case of Bminor, the root note is "B", right?
Ok all that I understand, but heres where I get lost again:
Why are the other two notes refered to as the "3rd and 5th"... I have never understood that at all, but also I have never had anyone break it down for me logically! Anyways guys, I appreciate everyones help so much... My hands are really becoming extremely fluent on the fretboard!!!! I am noticing a ton of progress and man there is nothing I love more than playing my Music!!!! Anyways guys, I'm off to the living room to plug in the Ibanez RG this after-noon and get busy learning and memorizing some more scales from this book I bought the other day called:
"The Guitarist's Scale Book by: Peter Vogl"..
"A complete scale encyclopedia with over 400 scales & modes."
you can find it for sale at:
http://www.cvls.com/guitar_scales.html
I highly recommend this for all the beginners out there! It really breaks it down in a way you can easily understand, and besides, scales have really helped my hand-speed and to really get familiar with the guitar!! They are extremely useful for me when it comes to warming-up and exercises!!!
Alright guys, Ill check back later!!!

ok so yes that is a true b minor chord even if it doesn't sound as good as a it would in an extended version.

the chord you say is technically B minor 1st inversion which in the key of B minor would be Ib (you might just ignore that little bit because you may not want to have to deal with that crap yet) which basically just means that you have your B, D and F# but because the D i the lowest note, and it is the 2nd note in the chord, it is the 1st inversion of the B minor chord. the second inversion would be, F#, B, D. they are the same notes but starting in different orders which means it is always a B minor chord but each one has a different sound which wil make the music more interesting.

an extended version of the chord you said could be

e-x
b-12
g-11
d-9
a-9
e-10

(hopefully that tabs pretty easy to understand and hopefully i've put the numbers in the right order lol, i'm just going from memory).


i know you asked telel man this and he will post and explain it far better than i ever could but never the less i'm still going to give it a go =P

i'll use B minor as the example seen as this is what we have been talking about.
your root note as you have said is the B, this is the first note in the B minor scale and hence is the root note.
the '3rd' is the 3rd note of the scale. which in the key of B minor is D. (note that the '3rd' will always determine whether the chord/scale is major or minor)
the '5th' is the 5th note of the scale. which is the key of B minor is F#.

these just tell you which note in the scale it is.

for example if you had Bminor9
you have the B minor of B, D and F# plus the 9th note in the scale.
now because there are only 8 notes to get to the octave. once you hit the 8th note you are back at the begining which in the key of B minor will be another B.
so the next note (the 9th note) will be the same note as the second note in the scale which is C#
so then a B minor 9 would be B, D, F# and C#

now if we add the C# to the chord i showed earlier it would look like this.

e-9
b-12
g-11
d-9
a-9
e-10

(again this is only right if memory is doing its job lol)

hope that answers some questions and will no doubt raise more with my poor explanations.

teleman will be able to explain more thorough than i can.

...well, the answer goes way back to the ancient Greek, Pythagorus, and his investigation into how BEATS occur when a single string vibrates, when he measured the ratio of BEATS created at different positions along the open string (today we call this process ‘chiming’ or ‘harping’ a string).

...and, it’s the position of these BEAT locations along the string that is the foundation of the ‘mother’ Ionian Scale, which is traditionally associated with the Key-of-C:

C  = I   = 1:1 ratio (1.000), lowest frequency, whole string vibrates as one; called a UNISON.

D  = II  = 9:8 ratio (1.125), 9 beats occur while whole string makes 8 beats; called a MAJOR Second.

E  = III = 5:4 ratio (1.250), 5 beats occur while whole string makes 4 beats; called a MAJOR Third.

F  = IV  = 4:3 ratio (1.333), 4 beats occur while whole string makes 3 beats; called a PERFECT Fourth.

G  = V   = 3:2 ratio (1.500), 3 beats occur while whole string makes 2 beats; called a PERFECT Fifth.

A  = VI  = 5:3 ratio (1.667), 5 beats occur while whole string makes 3 beats; called a MAJOR Sixth.

B  = VII = 15:8 ratio (1.875), 15 beats occur while whole string makes 8 beats; called a MAJOR Seventh.

C’ = IIX = 2:1 ratio (2.000), 2 beats occur while whole string makes 1 beat; called an OCTAVE (Italian for “eight”)

...back in Pythagoras’s time, they didn’t use frets, just collections of tuned, open, strings; same as today’s Lyres and Harps. So, chiming/harping was their equivalent of our string fretting.

...the Greeks discovered that simultaneously plucking the I, III and V strings produced the most pleasant (harmonious = together) sound; hence, our definition of a triad CHORD: simultaneous sounding of Root, 3rd and 5th tones.

...the interval between the I note and the III note is called a “third,” so a MAJOR triad is simply two “third” intervals stacked together, ie: I-to-III and III-to-V, or I-to-III-to-V.

...this simple table illustrates how 99% of the MAJOR chords are constructed:

3-notes = I, III, V ............................(MAJOR triad, the simplest chord)
4-notes = I, III, V, VII .....................(MAJOR 7th)
5-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX ................(MAJOR 9th)
6-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX, XI ...........(MAJOR 11th)
7-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX, XI, XIII ...(MAJOR 13th)

...the MINOR chord counterparts are constructed exactly the same way as above, except the III note will now be flatted a half-step/half-tone (ie: MINOR’ed) to become a m3 or iii note (lower case denotes minor). Which brings us back to our original RATIO discussion, where the MINOR III (ie: iii or m3) note is:

iii = 6:5 ratio (1.200), 6 beats occur while whole string makes 5 beats; called a MINOR Third.

...some traditional music theory technicalities:

A) MAJOR notes (II, III, VI, VII) are “minored” when flatted, which ‘technically’ makes our Rock-n-Roll dominant 7th note actually a minor of the MAJOR 7th note (which is *why* I often use d7 for dominant 7th...just my preference, not actually a rule).

B) PERFECT notes (IV, V) are “diminished” when flatted (b or -) and “augmented” when sharped (# or +), hence the reason a triad with a raised 5th is called an "augmented" chord and a triad with a flatted 5th is called a "diminished" chord.

...something to remember about Greek musical “theory” and music today:  the Greeks used only INTEGER ratios for their (Pythagorean) scales and modes. Today, we use the “equally-tempered” scale, which is a mathematical compromise (twelvth-root of two ratio) that enables us to easily change KEYS without having to retune, something that can’t be done with the Pythagorean Scales (think harmonicas here). Between the Greeks and our tempered scale, there have been MANY other scales, for instance the “Just Diatonic” scale of the Renaissance-period.

So-o-o-o-o, in summary, the note DEGREES (the Roman Numeral designation for the note positions) come from their “beat” RATIO numbers, which merely numerically represent their pitch frequencies.

Anyone learning music theory would be better off if they copied and printed OTM's great post. Refer to it on your journey to guitar mastery and it will begin to make more and more sense. Just sayin' because OTM has previously helped me to understand all of the above post.

Cheers,

GuitarZen

thanks for the helpful replies! OTM & GuitarFreak, the info has helped me out a lot... But ofcourse I am not able to digest all of this information just yet, being absolutely clueless to music theory almost... So a lot of it is hard for me to understand right now, but the more I play, the more I catch on.... I went to the Book-Store last night and we have got a very good book store with usually everything I need, and I could NOT find a book I felt comfortable in buying with Music Theory/Chords, Progressions, Scales, etc etc... I dont know if maybe some of the writing I previewed was maybe just a little too intimidating or what.... Most of the books that interest me have a ton of other information in them that I might want to avoid right now and that leads me to another question..... For me to be able to understand and master the guitar, will I also have to learn how to read sheet music, as in, learning the trebles, clefs, rests, what note is what, etc etc....? Honestly I dont plan on ever playing any sheet music or making any in the style, but I am also not far enough in my learning to know either... So what do you guys think about that? And do you guys have any good websites that you yourselves use for music theory?

...I believe GuitarZen and 69 Jaguar would agree, but you could simply try asking your questions here.

I thought of saying just that OTM, but thought i'd give you or Jag a chance and voila !

OTM makes a good point MicahNTX, I don't know if there is any site out there that can explain things
any better than you will likely find right here in chordbook. If you read back through this thread here that you
started, and as soon as there is a part you don't understand, stop and post a question and i can almost guaranty a reliable response. Also, no one here will let a post get by with the wrong answer in it. While we've got each other's backs here, we also keep an eye on each other.

Cheers,

GuitarZen

Well if you have Windows try  ,,PowerTabs.net,,   If not maybe you could try something like   ,,Music Creator,,  Also this being my first post I like to say Hi to everyone. Classy  site I must say.

Welcome aboard Peripheral, thanks for the link.  You're going to like it here and if you'll notice, there's even a chat. Something that may be unique to music sites !

GuitarZen

Old Tele man wrote:

...well, the answer goes way back to the ancient Greek, Pythagorus, and his investigation into how BEATS occur when a single string vibrates, when he measured the ratio of BEATS created at different positions along the open string (today we call this process ‘chiming’ or ‘harping’ a string).

...and, it’s the position of these BEAT locations along the string that is the foundation of the ‘mother’ Ionian Scale, which is traditionally associated with the Key-of-C:

C  = I   = 1:1 ratio (1.000), lowest frequency, whole string vibrates as one; called a UNISON.

D  = II  = 9:8 ratio (1.125), 9 beats occur while whole string makes 8 beats; called a MAJOR Second.

E  = III = 5:4 ratio (1.250), 5 beats occur while whole string makes 4 beats; called a MAJOR Third.

F  = IV  = 4:3 ratio (1.333), 4 beats occur while whole string makes 3 beats; called a PERFECT Fourth.

G  = V   = 3:2 ratio (1.500), 3 beats occur while whole string makes 2 beats; called a PERFECT Fifth.

A  = VI  = 5:3 ratio (1.667), 5 beats occur while whole string makes 3 beats; called a MAJOR Sixth.

B  = VII = 15:8 ratio (1.875), 15 beats occur while whole string makes 8 beats; called a MAJOR Seventh.

C’ = IIX = 2:1 ratio (2.000), 2 beats occur while whole string makes 1 beat; called an OCTAVE (Italian for “eight”)

...back in Pythagoras’s time, they didn’t use frets, just collections of tuned, open, strings; same as today’s Lyres and Harps. So, chiming/harping was their equivalent of our string fretting.

...the Greeks discovered that simultaneously plucking the I, III and V strings produced the most pleasant (harmonious = together) sound; hence, our definition of a triad CHORD: simultaneous sounding of Root, 3rd and 5th tones.

...the interval between the I note and the III note is called a “third,” so a MAJOR triad is simply two “third” intervals stacked together, ie: I-to-III and III-to-V, or I-to-III-to-V.

...this simple table illustrates how 99% of the MAJOR chords are constructed:

3-notes = I, III, V ............................(MAJOR triad, the simplest chord)
4-notes = I, III, V, VII .....................(MAJOR 7th)
5-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX ................(MAJOR 9th)
6-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX, XI ...........(MAJOR 11th)
7-notes = I, III, V, VII, IX, XI, XIII ...(MAJOR 13th)

...the MINOR chord counterparts are constructed exactly the same way as above, except the III note will now be flatted a half-step/half-tone (ie: MINOR’ed) to become a m3 or iii note (lower case denotes minor). Which brings us back to our original RATIO discussion, where the MINOR III (ie: iii or m3) note is:

iii = 6:5 ratio (1.200), 6 beats occur while whole string makes 5 beats; called a MINOR Third.

...some traditional music theory technicalities:

A) MAJOR notes (II, III, VI, VII) are “minored” when flatted, which ‘technically’ makes our Rock-n-Roll dominant 7th note actually a minor of the MAJOR 7th note (which is *why* I often use d7 for dominant 7th...just my preference, not actually a rule).

B) PERFECT notes (IV, V) are “diminished” when flatted (b or -) and “augmented” when sharped (# or +), hence the reason a triad with a raised 5th is called an "augmented" chord and a triad with a flatted 5th is called a "diminished" chord.

...something to remember about Greek musical “theory” and music today:  the Greeks used only INTEGER ratios for their (Pythagorean) scales and modes. Today, we use the “equally-tempered” scale, which is a mathematical compromise (twelvth-root of two ratio) that enables us to easily change KEYS without having to retune, something that can’t be done with the Pythagorean Scales (think harmonicas here). Between the Greeks and our tempered scale, there have been MANY other scales, for instance the “Just Diatonic” scale of the Renaissance-period.

So-o-o-o-o, in summary, the note DEGREES (the Roman Numeral designation for the note positions) come from their “beat” RATIO numbers, which merely numerically represent their pitch frequencies.

can you elaborate on the beats and ratios i found this post very interesting but i am not sure i understtand the terminology of ratio in this context. i do see a pattern and notice that the I III and V are at .250 intervals

...a "3:2" ratio means the WHOLE string moves UP & DOWN two times while the embedded vibrations on the string vibrate three times, so that their ratio is 1.5:1...but the numbering "3:2" is used because strings do NOT vibrate fractionally, only as whole integers, so their vibrational relationships are always expressed as ratios of whole numbers.

cricketrider wrote:

Old Tele man wrote:

...what is an embedded vibration then?

...a vibration riding on a vibrating string. Words don't convey what a picture easily shows.

...and the DEVIL said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"