beth wrote:

...it's showing the" I-to-VI relationship" of the single DEGREE notes; is it 90 degrees to root note shows the 6th note?

...yes, 90-degrees RIGHT from the ROOT note C is Am; from G would be Em, etc.

beth wrote:

example (F) the DEGREES of a key occupy an offset, 90-degree portion of the circle; for example, below are the DEGREE-notes of the Key of C, see how they are "offset" one from the Root note.

...although my wording is probably "incoherent," here's a "clock"-analogy explanation of "offset," where the Key of C DEGREES occupy the 11:00-thru-5:00 positions:

11:00 = F, the 4th degree
12:00 = C, the Root degree
01:00 = G, the 5th degree
02:00 = D, the 2nd degree
03:00 = A, the 6th degree
04:00 = E, the 3rd degree
05:00 = B, the 7th degree

...does this help?

beth wrote:

example (D) the "Relative Minor" chord to the Key ROOT chord is "90-degrees clockwise" from the Key ROOT (I to VIm)

...again, the Circle of Fifths chart refers to both DEGREE notes (I is Root, VI is sixth) as well as CHORDS, e.g.: I is "root" or "Key Signature" C-chord (hence: Key of C) and VIm is the minor-6th chord (Am) with is the "relative minor" of I.

beth wrote:

a little lost with this still can you give me some moe example with different root  notes like C root (I), thus Am (vi) is the "relative minor"

...the best explanation I can give is to 'jump ahead' slightly and "show" you how the NOTES in the tetra (4-note) chords C6 and Am7 are same, but different order:

TRIAD (3 note chord) 2 of 3 notes same:
..C = C (R), E (3), G (5)
Am = A (R), C (m3), E (5)

TETRA (4 note chord) all notes same!:
...C6 = C(R), E(3), G(5), A(6)
Am7 = A(R), C(m3), E(5), G(7)

ok at last old tele man  we can move foward thanks

...OK, here is our first excursion beyond the Key of C, specifically the Key of G (1-sharp, 1#):



...notice how the "C"-chord row has NO empty squares (representing sharp (#) or flat (b) notes) under any of its DEGREE column; but, the "G"-shord does have an empty square, under the VII or Major 7th column (which is F#, hence the 1-sharp Key Signature).

...since the most common song chords are C, F and G, our next new chord is the F (1-flat, 1b):
                                                           


...notice how: (a) with the G-chord, the F-note is a halfstep below the M7-degree, so to reach the proper position, the note had to be "raised" (ie: sharped); but, (b) with the F-chord, the B-note is a halfstep above the IV-degree, so to reach the proper position, the note had to be "lowered" (ie: flatted).

ok can see that but where did the other line of degrees come from -2 2 +2/m3 -------m7 ?

just noticed something the root and the 5th on the circle of 5ths does that give me power chords? sorry about going backwards

beth wrote:

ok can see that but where did the other line of degrees come from -2 2 +2/m3 -------m7 ?

...it's a PIANO THEORY thing (see chart below)


NOTE: to better "see" the above chart, place the pointer on the chart and click the "right" mouse button and then click on VIEW IMAGE.

...in PIANO THEORY, the II-degree is a fullstep above the ROOT, but notice there is also an identical note one fullstep above the OCTAVE! The piano assumes TWO hands to cover two octaves, on guitars we don't have two hands for fretting, so this "rule" is ignored, and all the "upper" DEGREES are "folded" back down into the first octave, thus making "paired" DEGREES: 2/9, 4/11, 6/13.

...from "piano theory" there IS a difference, but for guitar, they're 'treated' as being the same...although "technically" there IS a difference, but that difference is often ignored for most players (only classical and such players actually "use" the piano theory differentiation).

...thus, once the "upper" octave is "folded" down onto the "lower" octave, the following DEGREE-notes become identical: -2/-9, 2/9, +2/+9/m3(*), 4/11, -5/+11, +5/-13, 6/13.  NOTE (*) = the augmented 2/9 DEGREES (also +2/+9) are enharmonic (same tone) with the minor-3rd (IIIm or iii)...when using ROMAN numerals to designate DEGREES, the "minor" DEGREE is designated using "lower"case roman numerals, e.g.: (IIIm = iii), although most people use the "m" suffix just to make things clear.

beth wrote:

just noticed something the root and the 5th on the circle of 5ths does that give me power chords? sorry about going backwards

...yes the "power" chords use only two DEGREES (Root and 5th), but usually play THREE notes (R, 5, R') to comply with "three notes or more."

cool under standing all that thanks again your good at this

beth wrote:

you're good at this

...thanks for the kind words.

...using the same DEGREE chart, next we learn "how" the MODES (scales started on notes other than the ROOT) and HARMONIZED chords are created:



...the above chart shows only the D and E MODES, but illustrates "how" they're just "started" on their own NOTE and then played across the rest of the DEGREES.

...when those MODES are arranged so the MODE note is under the ROOT column, we get the following HARMONIZED chords (as already seen on the Circle of Fifths):



...notice how the III and V DEGREE-notes are functionally the "third interval" in each sequence starting from the ROOT, like this:

III = ROOT, 2nd, 3rd.
V = 3rd, 4th, 5th.

...the little "raised" circle (o) is the common abbreviation for DIMINISHED chord, meaning BOTH the 3rd and 5th-degree notes have been lowered, hence: Bm(o) = R, m3, m5.

NOTE: The above HARMONIZED chords are all TRIADs (having only 3 notes), when we "add" another 'stacked' 3rd-interval, we'll land on the VII-DEGREE, like this: VII = 5th, 6th, M7th, and the harmonized chords will then have 4 notes.

the view  image does not work for me but its cool

beth wrote:

the view  image does not work for me but its cool

...can you see the whole chart? If not, I can break it apart and post it as two separate charts which you'll need to "put together" to visualize the LEFT-hand and RIGHT-hand span of two octaves. Let me know.

sorry no i cant see everything now thanks the second box down i cant see wow now its  back again so all ok

not having a good day cant understand how you got the modes sorry

...time to stop for a moment and "explain" some of what the DEGREES/MODES/CHORDS chart is showing:

1) across the TOP are the "DEGREE"-notes (e.g.: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII) as well as their "intermediate" related degree-notes (e.g: +/-II, IIIm, +/-V, etc.).

2) across, but referenced by different ROOT note are the "MODES."

...remember this from a previous posting?

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C' = Ionian
D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D' = Dorian
E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E' = Phrygrian
F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F' = Lydian
G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G' = Mixolydian
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A' = Aeloian
B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B' = Locrian

3) down the LEFT are the HARMONIZED "CHORDS"...chords made from the "MODES" (in Key of C: C, Dm, Em, etc.)

...sequentially playing each one of the DEGREE-notes forms the IONIAN mode/scale.

...simultaneously playing each "THIRD-interval" note (R, 3, 5, and 7 if a 4-note chord) forms a chord. In the Key of C, the IONIAN mode/scale will be coincide with the CMajor (triad, 3 notes) or CMajor7th (tetra, 4 notes) chord.

...notice that MODES are merely the sequential notes of the IONIAN scale, except they've been started/stopped on a different ROOT note.

...when the MODES are aligned with their respective starting note (e.g.: ROOT) under the ROOT column, the "HARMONIZED" scale "...of chords" is formed...thus, the HARMONIZED chords are merely the simultaneous playing of the "stacked" third-intervals of a MODE...

...does this all make sense?

NOTE: VERY important note! so far, ALL of our examples have been in the Key of C; later we'll cover the same material in a different key (probably E or A, etc.)

sorry i dont under stand
using the same DEGREE chart, next we learn "how" the MODES (scales started on notes other than the ROOT) and HARMONIZED chords are created how do they start like is it because you skip a note every time so like the next is F?


...when those MODES are arranged so the MODE note is under the ROOT column, we get the following HARMONIZED chords (as already seen on the Circle of Fifths): STILL DONT UNDER STAND THIS


down the LEFT are the HARMONIZED "CHORDS"...chords made from the "MODES" (in Key of C: C, Dm, Em, etc.)like how are you finding the minor notes?
simultaneously playing each "THIRD-interval" note (R, 3, 5, and 7 if a 4-note chord) forms a chord. In the Key of C, the IONIAN mode/scale will be coincide with the CMajor (triad, 3 notes) or CMajor7th (tetra, 4 notes) chord.

...notice that MODES are merely the sequential notes of the IONIAN scale, except they've been started/stopped on a different ROOT note.

...when the MODES are aligned with their respective starting note (e.g.: ROOT) under the ROOT column, the "HARMONIZED" scale "...of chords" is formed...thus, the HARMONIZED chords are merely the simultaneous playing of the "stacked" third-intervals of a MODE...

...does this all make sense? i am sorry to say nope i must be slow read it and read it but sorry cant figure it out

beth wrote:

sorry i dont under stand

...well, maybe my summation "piled on" too much information, all at once? Let me try again, slower, and step-by-step:



...the "mother" key is the Key-of-C, comprised of the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B and its octave C'...the ROOT (I) and its OCTAVE (I') are colored pink.

...each of the notes (C through C') has a DEGREE-name (e.g.: I = root, II = 2nd, III = 3rd, IV = 4th, V = 5th, VI = 6th, VII = 7th and I' = octave) and positioned horizontally beneath their DEGREE numbers.

...sequentially playing (C, then D, then E, then F, etc.) every DEGREE-note is called playing a SCALE; thus, the DEGREE-notes C(I), D(II), E(III), F(IV), G(V), A(VI), B(VII) and C'(I') form a SCALE.

...simultaneously playing each THIRD-interval DEGREE-note is called playing a CHORD; thus, the DEGREE-notes C, E, G form a CHORD...the definition of a CHORD is three or more notes played simultaneously. The "simplist" chord is a TRIAD meaning 3-notes (ROOT, III, V  = C, E, G in the Key of C).

NOTE: a "THIRD-interval" means every THIRD note, COUNTING the note you're starting on, for example:

* ROOT-to-II-to-III (or C-to-D-to-E) is a first THIRD-interval, thus notes I = C(pink) and III = E(yellow)...II was skipped.
* III-to-IV-to-V (or E-to-F-to-G) is a second THIRD-interval , thus notes III = E and V = G(yellow)...IV was skipped.
* thus, the C triad chord is I, III, V, where I(root) is C-note, III is E-note, and V is G-note.
* two stacked (one above the other, not below) THIRD-intervals comprise a TRIAD (3 note) CHORD.

...so, ALL the notes from root C(I) through octave C'(I') comprise the Key of C scale, also named the "IONIAN scale," and every note of that scale has a numerical DEGREE name (either ROMAN numeral (formal) or ARABIC number (more commonly used)).

...a CHORD is just the ROOT, III and V-degree notes from that SCALE...which in the 'Key of C' are the C, E, G notes...

ok got that thanks for breaking it down

...now we move down from the Key of C and its IONIAN scale and "show" how the MODES (and their respective CHORDS) are formed...but, we'll do it only one MODE & CHORD at a time until you're comfortable with the process.

...here's the 'first' MODE, called the DORIAN mode. It is "formed" by starting on the D-note (or II-degree), shifting it over to the left until it (the D-note) is in the ROOT (or I-degree) column, and all the others notes are likewise shifted over...like this:



...just as with the IONIAN scale above, sequentially playing the notes D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D' produces the MODE called the DORIAN mode...notice that they're the SAME notes (as in the IONIAN scale) except they're starting and ending on D instead of C.

...and, as with the IONIAN scale above, simultaneously playing the notes D, F, A produces the CHORD created from the DORIAN mode, called the D-minor chord.

...why is it MINOR, when the C chord was MAJOR? Because the spacing (or intervals) between notes has changed...in the C-Major chord, notice that there's a "blank" space between the ROOT note and the "skipped" II-degree and another "blank" space between the II-degree and the III-degree note; this spacing is called a MAJOR third.

...in the D-minor chord, notice that there's a "blank" space between the ROOT note the "skipped" II-degree, but NO "blank" space between it and the immediately adjacent III-degree note; this spacing is called a MINOR third and is commonly abbreviated as m3 or simply minor, as in Dm3 or Dminor or Dm.

...sequentially playing ALL the notes from D through to D' is playing the DORIAN MODE.

...simultaneously playing the triad notes R(pink), m3(yellow), 5(yellow) is playing the D-minor chord created from the DORIAN mode, thus Dm = D-note(root), F-note (m3) and A-note (5th).

ok but or how did you come up with not skipping between 11 and 111 to get the minor still not sure how the Dmaj turns into Dm
i read this so many time what am i missing?

just one more thing do we call m3 different over in europe

beth wrote:

ok but or how did you come up with not skipping between 11 and 111 to get the minor still not sure how the Dmaj turns into Dm

..."interval" means distance, and the intervals or distances between the ROOT note and the III-degree-note are different in a Major chord than they are in a minor chord.

...referring to the chart above, you can "see" that the "interval" or distance between the ROOT and III in the C-Major  chord is not the same as the "interval" or distance between the ROOT and IIIm (m3) in the D-minor chord just below it.

...to "hear" this difference in "intervals" all you have to do is:

FIRST simultaneously play a C-note (ROOT) and an E-note (III)...the pitch "difference" is a MAJOR third.

THEN simultaneously play a C-note (ROOT) and an Eb-note (IIIm)...the pitch "difference" is a MINOR third.

...the two tones you just played were Key of C, but you "changed" the Key signature from MAJOR (C and E notes) to MINOR (C and Eb notes) by reducing the pitch interval or distance between the ROOT C and its III-degree tone by a halfstep.

...when the original C-through-C' IONIAN scale is started on the D-note, instead of C, the interval between the ROOT note (which is now D = ROOT) and its III-degree is a halfstep lower in pitch...or, instead of there being a FULLstep between ROOT-to-II and another FULLstep between II-to-III (as there was with the C-Major chord), with the D (DORAIN) mode, there's a FULLstep between ROOT-to-II, but only a HALFstep between II and III, thus making the IIIm (or m3).

Old Tele man wrote:

.

...when the original C-through-C' IONIAN scale is started on the D-note, instead of C, the interval between the ROOT note (which is now D = ROOT) and its III-degree is a halfstep lower in pitch...or, instead of there being a FULLstep between ROOT-to-II and another FULLstep between II-to-III (as there was with the C-Major chord), with the D (DORAIN) mode, there's a FULLstep between ROOT-to-II, but only a HALFstep between II and III, thus making the IIIm (or m3).

I understand what it does but is there a reason for the interval to change when using D, OR is it because we have just changed it to a minor scale in the key of C

Does it automatically change?  Like why doesn‚Äôt the Lydian scale move over to change to a minor?

Dose my question make sense

beth wrote:

I understand what it does but is there a reason for the interval to change when using D, OR is it because we have just changed it to a minor scale in the key of C

Does it automatically change?  Like why doesn‚Äôt the Lydian scale move over to change to a minor?

Dose my question make sense

...all the MODES are merely "shifted" starting points in a C or IONIAN scale...thus, the NOTES comprising Dm, Em, F, G, etc. chords are "contained" in the C scale...but, those NOTES only become CHORDS when one of them is selected and defined to be a new ROOT note, as was shown when the DORIAN mode was discussed.

...starting on the II-Degree note of the C-scale, makes the D-note the "new" ROOT from which the "intervals" are then measured from...and, instead of the interval between ROOT and III-degrees being MAJOR (e.g.: I-to-II in FULLsetep and II-to-III in FULLstep...C-to-D-to-E), it has become MINOR (e.g.: I-to-II in FULLstep, but II-to-III only HALFstep...D-to-E-to-F)...because of the NOTES themselves (remember, they're ALL from the same C-scale).

...with the IONIAN "C" scale (MAJOR), there's a FULLstep between the II-and-III degree notes (D-to-E), but with the DORIAN "Dm" mode (MINOR), it's a HALFstep between the II-and-III degree notes (E-to-F).

...remember, all of the scale/mode NOTES are the same, but which three notes (R, 3, 5) are being used to form the triad CHORD for the ROOT note change with each new MODE...because of "new" notes and different spacings resulting from which note we "start" from....within the original C-to-C' scale of seven degree notes.

...thus, same NOTES but different starting point = different CHORD notes (key) and spacings (minor/major)