Old Tele man wrote:

t0mboy_Rampag3 wrote:

Hey OTM

anyway you can get back the pictures?
ive tried to understand most of it but cant really get into it..
thanks

TMR3

...so far, Qwest hasn't let me post anything, but I actually did archieve ALL those images, so "yes" I have them, just can't get my ISP to provide storage to host / post them.

Okay...
If you ever can get them back again...tell me
hehe....i would love to learn from this topic...

TMR3

Didn't want this post to disappear again.

so its been a long time since this post has been re-opend but i hope some one can help......is old tele talking about chords specifically or scales also when he talks about active and  rest  degrees?

Old Tele man wrote:

beth wrote:

is an octave is a 8 notes higher than the root note?

...yes, the "octave" (Italian for "eighth") is the 8th-DEGREE-note, but when you count the "in-between" sharp(#) and flat(b) notes, it's the 12th "fret" above (and below! e.g.: sub-octave) a ROOT-note.

NAMES OF THE SCALE DEGREES--just as the MODES have individual "names" so too do the DEGREES of a scale:

I = Tonic
II = Supertonic
III = Mediant
IV = Subdominant
V = Dominant
VI = Submediant
VII = Leading Tone

...although I won't use them, they are used quite often.

...also, the scale DEGREES have two basic "movement" characteristics: (a) "active" tones, which want to 'move' or 'resolve' to someother tone; and, (b) "rest" tones, which are 'stationary' and to which the "active" tones will 'resolve' to.

...the "active" and "rest" tones and their characteristic "movement" relationships are:

"active" = II, IV, VI and VII
"rest" = I, III, V and octave (I').

II resolves to either I or III
IV resolves to III
VI resolves to V
VII resolves to 8 or I'

...these movements and resolutions are the basis for the familiar chord changes used in songs.

Hello wiggs, OTM will hopefully expand on my condensed version but here's what i read in the quoted lesson:

OTM is talking about the movement characteristics of the scale degree notes and also that these characteristics
are the basis of chord changes in songs. Chord changes can also be referred to as chord progressions.
For example, a I IV V progression is a rest tone or chord, an active tone or chord that leads to another
rest tone or chord. This is just my simple take based on my interpretation of OTM's great lesson.

GuitarZen

so does a  rest tone (or chord) always follow a active tone (or chord) and if so woulnt it be a pattern of active, rest, active, rest, etc.

Ok my turn to answer. This is my own observation from the dabblings I've made into music theory and what I think I understand from OTM's most excellent teachings. The answer wiggs, is yes and no. Commonly or what will appeal to our ear is active, rest, active, rest and etc. However, there is a very good reason why music theory is so complex. It must explain why millions of differing songs sound the way they do. You can play a chord progression that goes rest, rest , rest, active if that's what you want to do and nobody can say your playing it wrong. Of course you may have difficulty selling that song to anybody but you can play any thing in any combo that you wish to play in. When you learn by ear as I originally did you automatically pick up on concepst of resolving one chord to another because it sounds pleasing to you. Anyways that's my limited understanding and I may have gotten it all wrong. So now we'll wait for OTM to log on and correct it.

...actually, while the above was written about the individual degree NOTES, it also applies to TRIAD chords...but ONLY to triad chords!

...how? Simply look at the relationships and compare them with the Harmonized Scale CHORDS and you'll recognize many, many common chord pairings.

triads that being major, minor, diminished or augmented chords?

wiggs wrote:

triads that being major, minor, diminished or augmented chords?

...correct, the simple three note triad chords, but not including the augmented chord, which isn't one of the Harmonized Scale-derived  chords, ie:

CMaj = C,E,G
Dmin = D,F,A
Emin = E,G,B
FMaj = F,A,C
GMaj = G,B,D
Amin = A,C,E
Bdim = B,D,F

...why, only triads? Because the additional notes alter the basic tonalities established by the ROOT notes of each triad, ie: the ROOT notes are the same notes as the individual DEGREE notes. Start "adding" more and more notes and their 'individualness' gets lost in the the new overall tone of the chord. And, that's also why the augmented chord isn't included...it's not one of the Harmonized Scale chords.

...a well known example of the above is the CMajor 6th chord sounding exactly like an Am7 chord, even though they have totally different ROOT notes. How is this possible? Remember a CHORD is the simultaneous sounding of all the notes at the same time, so there's no 'separate' bass note to hear and from which to discern the ROOT to be.

Reminds me of a lesson way back...about 'grabbing' an Am7 instead of a CMajor 6th....same notes, different order, Am7 much easier to play, and i think it was about 'economy of movement' and 'close enuff' chords that jazz players use a lot.

GuitarZen

...exactly, and it's also *why* an arpeggio WILL be heard differently than a chord, because the bass note is sounded and heard separately...think HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN, SUNNY, etc.


P.S. -- did anyone recognize that the "rest" tones are simply the three notes that comprise a basic triad, ie: R, 3, 5? And, that the "active" tones are simply the 'other' notes of the scale, ie: 2, 4, 6 and 7? (and, yes, a minor scale will be different!)

interesting..............................  so if apllied the active rest method to the patterns of chord types in the major scale i would have a ligitimate  chord progression. for example

C-Major-I
A-Minor-VI
G-Major-V

...right, C is I is rest, Am is vi active, and G is V is rest again...ie: rest-active-rest.

...now, throw-in a dominant 7th onto the G chord and resolve back to C and you get the 'progression': rest (C), active (Am), rest (G), active (G7), back to rest (C)

so your saying go from Gmajor to G7 then Back to Cmajor

and if so goin from G to G7 doesnt break the active rest format because G7 is not a triad chord?

Hi wiggs, the answer to your question is in here where OTM said: 

P.S. -- did anyone recognize that the "rest" tones are simply the three notes that comprise a basic triad, ie: R, 3, 5? And, that the "active" tones are simply the 'other' notes of the scale, ie: 2, 4, 6 and 7? (and, yes, a minor scale will be different!)

I'm hoping as always that OTM will expand on that because you bring up a good point.

Cheers,

GuitarZen

...in the Key-of-C, the I is C, the III is E, and the V is G, so G is considered a "rest" note and chord.  But, throw a dominant 7th note into the V-chord triad, and it becomes tonally VERY "active" and leads you back to the I chord, or C.

...the "difference" is the addition of the dominant 7th note to the 'simple' G-chord triad, ie:

G Major = G, B, D
G dom7 = G, B, D, F

...an #F would be the "Leading Tone" or Major 7th, which wants to resolve up to the octave or Root note, but the dominant 7th note (F) is a HIGH-tension tone that just wants to "move."  For instance, you can use it to introduce movement back down to the IV-chord (F) or just about ANY chord you want...that's why the dominant 7th note is used so much in rock-n-roll songs...it exudes "tension."

I thought you'd say that OTM....in this case would the G7 cause the ear to 'listen' for the resolution chord and almost guess what it's going to be?

Cheers,

GuitarZen

the donminate 7th is now an active tone so it has to  resolve to a rest or is there an exception because its not a major triad it can resolve to any tone?

also the dominate 7th chord and tone does it have to follow the dominate tone or chord in the progression

...because of its tension, it just wants to resolve.

...if you play just the NOTE, then it wants to resolve to one of the "rest" tones, either I, III or V, but if its a dominant 7th CHORD, it can go just about ANYWHERE, but usually stays within the "key signature" chords, ie: if G7 chord, then to any of its related harmonized scale chords:

C
Dm
Em
F
G7 --  can go to anyone of the other chords, but most commonly goes back to I (C).
Am
Bdim

ok thanks i think i get it now im gonna read through more  but i probaly have more questions later.



PS. sorry for being thick headed lol