Thats all good but if i was to bring the 5th and 6th strings into it on the Em can i just add my finger on the B note of the A string?

why did we leave them out in the first place ?

beth wrote:

Thats all good but if i was to bring the 5th and 6th strings into it on the Em can i just add my finger on the B note of the A string?

...yes. Em would be frets:  0 2 2 0 0 0 ...and Em7 would be frets:  0 2 0 0 0 0  or  0 2 0 0 3 0

beth wrote:

why did we leave them out in the first place ?

...because, we're talking MODES and their respective "harmonized" CHORDS here. We have not gotten into "full" six-string fingerings yet...but, since you asked, ANY of the triad or tetrachord notes can be duplicated on any strings, which is how most six-string chords are formed, e.g.: 6-strings but only 3- and 4-note chords, so SOME notes get used (obviously) more than once.

LOL I should have kept my mouth shut ok now i see a bit more  thankyou

beth wrote:

LOL I should have kept my mouth shut ok now i see a bit more  thankyou

...questions always allowed...of course, I probably won't know the answers, but what the heck?!?!?

OK, next up is the Lydian MODE, which (in the Key-of-C) is made up of the sequentially played notes F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F' and whose "harmonizing" chord is FMajor (triad) or FMajor7 (FM7):



...to play the Lydian mode play these notes:

F(R) at fret 3, string D4
G(2) at fret 0, string D4
A(3) at fret 2, string D4
B(4) at fret 0, string G3
C(5) at fret 1, string G3
D(6) at fret 2, string B2
E(7) at fret 0, string E1 <---notice this is a Major 7 (M7) same as for the C-scale.
F'(R') at fret 1, string E2

...because the IV-degree is "Perfect" it  can be viewed as being both: (a) the IV-mode of the Key Signature (Ionian)  scale, or (b) as its own 'new' Key, as in the common I, IV, V progression, where the IV chord becomes a "temporary" ROOT with its own MODES for you to use (samething applies to the "Perfect" V-degree as well).

Notice that the notes of the I and IV CHORDS (CM7 and FM7) are "identical" as to interval pitch spacings (e.g.: they "line-up" under the same columns), like this:



...likewise, you can 'see' that the ii, iii and vi CHORDS (Dm7, Em7 and Am7) are also "identical" for the same reason.

at last i am happy to say for the first time i understand every thing you said there

beth wrote:

at last i am happy to say for the first time i understand every thing you said there

...excellent, glad to hear it!

...OK, next up is the Mixolydian MODE containing the "Key-of-C" notes G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G' and its "harmonizing" CHORDs G-major and G dominant 7 (G7):



...of the three major CHORDS [e.g.: I(M7), IV(M7), V(d7) ], the Mixolydian is the only one that does NOT use the MAJOR-7th degree MODE note or CHORD note...instead, it uses the halfstep lower dominant 7th (d7 or simply 7), which is sometimes (rarely) also called a "minor" Major-7th degree note (e.g.: bM7 or -M7, where the "-" implies minor), not to be confused with the minor-Major7th (XmM7) CHORD, which is common!.

...as a "Perfect" interval DEGREE note and CHORD, the V (and V7) chords, like the IV (and M7) chords, can also be considered a 'temporary' ROOT with its own modes.

...the 'one-octave' triad and tetrachord fingerings are: Gmaj = X X X 0 0 3;  G7 = X X X 0 0 1.

...the Beatles' song "NORWEGIAN WOOD" is written in the E-mixolydian scale.

a little more confusing now i must say now i know i should have kept it shut so what chords do we have in the Mixolydian scale G,C,D ARE all m7ths sorry lost here

beth wrote:

so what chords do we have in the Mixolydian scale G,C,D ARE all m7ths?

...no, the Mixolydian mode is a major-chord (as opposed to minor-chord) having a dominant 7th (d7 or just 7) degree:



...notice the ONLY difference between the Lydian (IV) and Mixolydian (V) modes is the Mixolydian has a dominant 7th ("F"-note in d7-column) instead of a major 7th (no note in VII-column)...compare how their notes align in III and V columns, but not the the d7- and M7-columns).

...maybe it's time for a review of the 'functions' of each DEGREE note in a CHORD:

........(I) ROOT = determines "foundation" note from which intervals are started.
.....(III) THIRD = determines MAJOR- (3) or MINOR- (m3) -ness of the chord and mode.
........(V) FIFTH = determines DIMINISHED- (-5) or AUGMENTED- (+5) -ness of the chord and mode.
(VII) SEVENTH = "anchor" note for the "higher" DEGREE notes, e.g.: 9th, 11th, 13th.

...the MAJOR modes are I, IV and V; their respective triad chords are I, IV, V and their tetra chords are IM7, IVM7, Vd7; the yellow box is under the III-column.

...the MINOR modes are ii, iii, vi and vii; their respective triad chords are IIm, IIIm, VIm, VIIdim and their tetra chords are IIm7, IIIm7, VIm7, VIIm7-5; the yellow box is under the m3-column.

thank you think it was all a  bit to much its  good to see it summed up a little you can compare things and put them into prospective thanks tele man

HOWEVER mmm question

........(V) FIFTH = determines DIMINISHED- (-5) or AUGMENTED- (+5) -ness of the chord and mode.


not  to sure about this though here we go again so by the poisition of the  fifth in the diagram tells you by its placing wheather its Augmented dose that mean  (-5) what does -5 mean ?

(VII) SEVENTH = "anchor" note for the "higher" DEGREE notes, e.g.: 9th, 11th, 13th.          does it not involve 7ths aswell ?

Hi all...I'm new to this board. Can't you tell.

Anyway, I've been reading (and re-reading) this thread over and over. Wow - Great stuff, Old Tele Man. Thanks so much for your time. I'm having a problem getting the graphics to display, though. I have some other study material that I use for reference (circle of fifths chart, etc) but would love to be able to see what you're using.

Any idea why the .gif files won't show? I'm using IE both at home and at work and can't see them on either PC.

Thanks,

John

beth wrote:

HOWEVER mmm question

........(V) FIFTH = determines DIMINISHED- (-5) or AUGMENTED- (+5) -ness of the chord and mode.

not  to sure about this though here we go again so by the poisition of the  fifth in the diagram tells you by its placing wheather its Augmented dose that mean  (-5) what does -5 mean ?

...actually, we really haven't discussed this, yet; there are two DEGREES that have (±note) "movements" possible, the 2/9-degreee and the 5 degree...the ±5 and ±9 are collectively referred to as "altered" notes, thus: C7+5, C9-5, C7-9 are all "altered" chords...we'll cover them later.

...for now, just be aware that the 5th (V) degree is the DEGREE that "makes" a chord either DIMINISHED (because it has a "flatted" 5th (-5 or b5) or makes it AUGMENTED (because it has a "sharped" 5th (+5 or #5 or aug5). In fact, when we get to the Locrian MODE, I'll have LOTS or 'splaining and 'fancy footworking' to do....(ha,ha).

beth wrote:

(VII) SEVENTH = "anchor" note for the "higher" DEGREE notes, e.g.: 9th, 11th, 13th.          does it not involve 7ths aswell ?

...yes, the Major 7th (also called the "leading tone" because it "leads" you back to the ROOT or OCTAVE) is used quite often in jazz, but it's the DOMINANT 7th (d7 or just 7, or bM7 or -M7) that serves as "anchor" to 9ths, 11ths and 13ths...and is used a LOT in blues and rock-n-roll songs!

Shamdog wrote:

I'm having a problem getting the graphics to display, though. Any idea why the .gif files won't show? I'm using IE both at home and at work and can't see them on either PC. Thanks, John

...sorry, but I have no idea what's wrong here...*.GIF files are pretty much a universal 'standard' across the internet, so there shouldn't be a problem "seeing" them...unless, possibly your IE has a "toggle" somwhere that needs to be activated for you to view them?

ok tele man i think i understand that bit

...OK, up next is the AEOLIAN MODE, consisting of the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A' and the CHORDS Am (triad) and Am7 (tetra); it is also called the "natural minor" scale or "relative 6th" minor:



...to practice the notes of the Aeolian mode, you play these notes:

A(R) at fret 2, string G3
B(2) at fret 0, string B2
C(m3) at fret 1, string B2
D(4) at fret 3, string B2
E(5) at fret 0, string E1
F(+5) at fret 1, string E1
G(7) at fret 3, string E1
A'(R') at fret 5, string E1



...notice that ii, iii, vi and vii are all considered MINOR chords because their III-degree note is "flatted" (e.g.: bIII = m3) and given the specific name "minor."

...notice how the CM7 chord and the Am7 chords both contain the same notes (C, E, G) except in different DEGREE positions...in fact, with a little "investigating" you will discover for yourself that C6 and Am will contain ALL same notes.

ok i see that

beth wrote:

ok i see that

...good.

...Ok, we're up to the last MODE, the LOCRIAN (or, "sad") MODE which is composed of the notes B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B' in the "Key-of-C" and has the triad chord Bdim and the TWO (yes, two!) tetra chords: (1) the "half-diminished" Bm7-5 (or B(??), little superscript circle with slash through it) and (2) the "full-diminished" Bdim7 or B(¬?7), little superscript circle with no slash.



...to play the Locrian mode scale (so that it sequentially "follows" the Am7 Aeolian mode) means you'll have to go UP the treble string:

B(R) at fret 0, string B2
C(b2) at fret 1, string B2
D(m3) at fret 3, string B2
E(4) at fret 0, string E1
F(b5) at fret 1, string E1
G(b6) at fret 3, string E1
A(d7) at fret 5, string E1
B'(R') at fret 7, string E1

...the Bm7-5 tetrachord is shown as Root (pink diamond) and blue dots.

...now the "fancy footwork" as to "why / how" the two different possible tetrachord names: (A) the MODE scale creates the CHORD degrees: R, m3, b5, d7(yellow "A" note)...which is logically translated as "min7-5" or "half-diminished"; but,  (B) when the Major 7th note is "double-flatted" (ie: bbM7 or b7) it produces the "FULL-diminished" chord which has the symmetric EQUAL-interval distances of R, m3, b5 and 6 (VI degree) (or b7 or bbM7)...thus the FULL-diminished chord is sometimes mistakenly called a Bdim6 chord.

...the DEGREE table looks like this for the Locrian MODE:



...both the half-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) and the full-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?7)) chords have both similar and different uses.

...notice the repeated symmetric "1-¬?" (and "¬?-1")-interval spacings between the R, m3, b5, 6 notes in the FULL-diminished; this symmetry of notes is "why" the full-diminished chords "repeat" every three frets UP and DOWN the neck, e.g.: the same notes simply reappear in different order.

Are extensions and mode similar ?
why am i not getting this
both the half-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) and the full-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?)) chords have both similar and different uses.
i cant find these i know BDF=dim  WHATS bbm7 though a G# OR Ab

beth wrote:

Are extensions and mode similar ?

...a MODE is simply a SCALE that you've "started/stopped" on a note that's not the ROOT...or stated another way: its the same alphabet but you've just started reciting it from B-through-A' instead of the normal A-through-Z' fashion.

beth wrote:

both the half-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) and the full-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?7)) chords have both similar and different uses.  i cant find these.

...like I mentioned, there are actually TWO versions of the tetrachord, the half-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) and the full-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?7)). Here's their differences:

HALF-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) is created from the MODE using the "normal" 3rd-interval pitch spacings (just like all the prior modes have been). The "minor7-flat5" chord functionally only "resolves" to its V-degree chord -- for example, the Bm7-5 to E7 chord change in SUNNY and SUMMERTIME are examples. If the Bm7-5 chord resolves (fancy word for changes to) to any other chord, it's "technically" a half-diminished chord (B(??)), but most people don't know or simple ignore this "piano theory" rule and treat them as being same.

FULL-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?)) is created from the same MODE notes but "drops" the Major7th degree, not ONE (b), but TWO flats (bb), hence the sometimes seen designation: bbM7...which, in reality means it's become the VI-degree note.

AS I SAID BEFORE: "...LOTs of fancy footwork..."

...why the two different diminished chords? Done way before I was born...but, "technically" it simply accommodates the true "reapeating" symmetry of the diminished 7th chord (B(¬?7))...which means its four notes "repeat" by rearrangement every third fret, thus a C(¬?7) at fret 3 will also be a C(¬?7) chord at fret 6 and fret 9 and fret 12, etc...with the only difference being that the notes have simply "rotated" each time.

NOTE: there are TWO types of chords having this "repeating" characteristics: the AUG5 which repeats every 4th fret and thus there are 3 identical AUG5 chords per octave; and the DIM7 which repeats every 3rd fret and thus there are 4 identical DIM7 chords per octave (the 'Circle of 5ths' also shows which AUG5 and which DIM7 chords are related).

...later, when we get into CHORDS they will be explained and maybe make more sense.

beth wrote:

i know BDF=dim  WHATS bbm7 though a G# OR Ab

...maybe I didn't phrase it well, but remember we're talking about three different chords here:

1) TRIAD Bdim, which is B(root), D(m3), F(-5 or b5)...or DEGREES: I, mIII, bV
2) TETRA Bm7-5, which is B(R), D(m3), F(-5), A(d7 or bM7)...or DEGREES: I, mIII, bV, bVII
3) TETRA Bdim7, which is B(R), D(m3), F(-5), G#(6 or bbM7)...or DEGREES: I, mIII, bV, bbVII

...the "real" difference? the half-diminished chord (Bm7-5) does NOT repeat; while the full-diminished (Bdim7 or B(¬?)) DOES repeat due because it's symmetry from having a 6th instead of a d7 note.

...for example the four "dim7" chords B(¬?7) = D(¬?7) = F(¬?7) = G#(¬?7) all contain the same notes, just in different/rotated order, e.g.:

..B(¬?7) = B, D, F, G#
..D(¬?7) = D, F, G#, B
...F(¬?7) = F, G#, B, D
G#(¬?7) = G#, B, D, F

QUESTION: do the "Circle of 5ths" charts actually look circular on your computer screen and when printed?

QUESTION: do the "Circle of 5ths" charts actually look circular on your computer screen and when printed?
YES THEY ARE PERFECT

TRING to grasp this but i cant im fryed

cant get my head around this bit

re are actually TWO versions of the tetrachord, the half-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) and the full-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?)). Here's their differences:

HALF-diminished Bm7-5 (B(??)) is created from the MODE using the "normal" 3rd-interval pitch spacings (just like all the prior modes have been). The "minor7-flat5" chord functionally only "resolves" to its V-degree chord -- for example, the Bm7-5 to E7 chord change in SUNNY and SUMMERTIME are examples. If the Bm7-5 chord resolves (fancy word for changes to) to any other chord, it's "technically" a half-diminished chord (B(??)), but most people don't know or simple ignore this "piano theory" rule and treat them as being same.

FULL-diminished Bdim7 (B(¬?)) is created from the same MODE notes but "drops" the Major7th degree, not ONE (b), but TWO flats (bb), hence the sometimes seen designation: bbM7...which, in reality means it's become the VI-degree note.

beth wrote:

TRING to grasp this but i cant im fryed

...OK, let's stop for a moment and talk about "why" modes are used:

A) since MODES are derived from the "mother" IONIAN scale of a key, they are basically "musical" variations.
B) MODES yield CHORDS that are "harmonious" with both the IONIAN scale as well as "parts of" that scale.
C) MODES provide different "mood" expressions.