WOULND LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT MODES AND HOW THEY WORK
                                       CAN SOME ONE PLZ HELP ME OUT

bobo808 wrote:

cricketrider wrote:

can any one help me out at learning about modes?

here check out this link it should help with your question. http://www.guitar-tutorial.net/diatonic.html

Ha fancy that I was hopping on to try and delve a little further into the pool of knowledge and understand modes a little better...

So.... if you take a major scale, say C, it seems to be the one every where to describe a new topic, back to C major.

C-D-E-F-G-A-B using the WWhWWWh technique to first get to the chosen scale you can use the pitches from inside that scale but change the root note, so obviously C is the root note but what if you changed that to an E root.

E-F-G-A-B-C-D so the pitches inside a C major are now used with a root E.

Same with F major, F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F changing the root from F to say Bb

Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb.

I hope that sheds a bit of light onto the question, I was hoping myself to find out whether once the root has changed does that mean the root becomes that scales key, as in the new Bb scale is mainly used with a piece in the key Bb?

Happy playin'

so what your saying is to stay with that C scale and use the next note in the scale,like the next note would be in dorian mode then phygrian,lyoain (sorry about the spelling)thanks for the help,

playing the c major scale, with c(first note) as a root note, you would be playing in c major.

playing the c major scale using d(second note) as a root note you would be playing in d dorian.

playing the c major scale using e(third note) as a root note you would be playing in e phrigian.

etc. etc.

hope this helps

^What you're all saying is true, but when you start talking about transposing those scales into different keys it gets really confusing what with all the different letter names and such. A simpler way to think about it is the Ionian [basic major-any key] scale is just the regular scale, nothing done to it. Dorian mode is the same exact thing but you flat the 3rd and 7th note of the scale. [Again, any major scale.] Phrygian flats the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th, Lydian sharps the 4th, Mixolydian flats just the 7th note, Aeolian is the natural minor scale. [Which flats the 3rd, 6th, and 7th.] And finally there's the Locrian mode which flats the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th note of the scale.

I know it looks like a lot, but the ones that get used the most are Dorian and Mixolydian so if you just practice messing around with those then you'll pretty much have it made.

So once you have changed the c major to d dorian does that mean the dorian is now used with songs in the key of D?

yug: No, the Dorian mode in itself can be used in any key, it's not restricted to just D. But D Dorian is the only time that it is just natural without any sharps or flats in it.

OK MAD MURTARD  SO IF I STAY IN THE KEY OF C MAJOR AND I WANT TO PLAY IN THE D DORIAN MODE I FINED THE D ANY WERE ON THE NECK AND STAY IN THE KEY OF C MAJOR BUT USE THE DORIAN SCALE WRITE,THANKS ?

You just mixed up two things I was saying. You can't play in C Major and in D Dorian. You can however, play in C Dorian, C# Dorian, E Dorian, F# Dorian, any key basically. Like I said before, a mode is not restricted to just one key, it can be played in any key you want. This link will probably be helpful: I would recommend reading the "Modern" section of this article. If you wanted I could post some videos of songs in different modes to show how they sound different.

A lot has been mentioned about modes and it has been helpful along with the good references provided.

I mean no one any offense when I suggest that before diving into modes one might first gather about them a full understanding of the basics starting with scales and likely in particular the C Major scale. From there, all things musical may be determined according to what I've been studying and from taking lessons right here in chordbook from our own Old Tele Man...again, no offense intended for those that I can tell by reading their posts are very knowledgeable.

That being said, and since I'm no way the last word on any music theory, for those like myself that are still unclear regarding modes, do the reading, dig through wiki, google for answers and ask as many musicians as you can so you'll be aware that there is more than one answer to the same question and that there are so many questions for the same answer.

And now I have a question that I hope will help and I don't really need it answered. Are not the modes of The C Major scale simply different starting points for other scales? True, there is more to it than that, but isn't that the place to start talking about modes?

If I've offended anyone, I apologise as that's not my intention. My intention is to learn and by so doing, hopefully help another to learn as I have been helped since I registered and began posting here. Petey sums it up best in his lessons page I think and to paraphrase Petey, I'll say the object of all this is to have fun.

Cheers,

GuitarZen

Here goes my attempt to explain modes. If somebody else knows better or I get something wrong please do correct this post. Modes are the flavor of music. Knowing when, how and where to use them would be the greatest accomplishment of any guitar player. Now, with that having been said, I offer an explanation: For myself learning the modes works best if I work in intervals. Thus, the major scale and 1st or Ionian mode goes, TTSTTTS (T=Tone S=Semitone). Since the 2nd note in the major scale is also the 2nd mode or Dorian, we begin this mode after the 1st interval so it goes TSTTTST which gives the Dorian mode a flat 3rd and 7th. The 3rd mode is Phrygian and its intervals are STTTSTT and it too has a flat 3rd and 7th. Also this mode has a flat 2nd which gives it it's unique flamenco sound. Next is Lydian and it starts at the 4th note of the major scale and goes TTTSTTS and it would be the same as Ionian except for its sharpened 4th. Mixolydian is the 5th mode and starts with the 5th note of major scale and goes TTSTTST. Its same as Ionian except for a dominant or flat 7th. Ok the 6th mode is Aeolian also called the natural minor scale. Its' interval sequence is TSTTSTT and it contains a flat 3rd, 6th and 7th. And last is Locrian STTSTTT which starts on the 7th note of the major scale and it to has a flat 3rd plus it has a flat 5th. Well there you have it folks the 7 modes as I understand them.

yug wrote:

So once you have changed the c major to d dorian does that mean the dorian is now used with songs in the key of D?

d dorian is a key in and of itself. d dorian is comprised of all of the same notes ad c major. therefore it also had all to same chords as c major as well. you use the same notes and chords, but because the tonal center has shifted, the song clearly sounds "dorian".

so for example the chords im c major are as follows.

I     c major
ii    d minor
iii   e minor
IV   f major
V    g major
vi   a minor
vii  b minor(sometimes played as a seventh chord)

ok. now that we have this established lets say you want to make a basic rock 1-4-5 chord progression.

the chords we get are C major, F major, ang G major. this progression is also reffered to in roman numerals as a {(I,IV,V) notice that the chords signified by a capital roman numeral are major, a lower case would indicate a minor chord.}

this type of 1-4-5 major chord progression is very common in rock and blues(though blues also uses alot of 6th and 7th chords.)

ok. now lets apply this 1-4-5 thinking to d dorian, in which the chords go as follows(notice that d dorian has all the same chords as c major, but in a different order)


i     d minor
ii    e minor
III   f major
IV   g major
v    a minor
vi   b minor
VIII c major

ok. so our 1-4-5 type progression would now be as follows: D minor, G major, A minor. this would be called a (i,IV,v) where the "1" and "5" chords are minor.

this gives a distinctively different soundwhen the d dorian scale also makes up the melody.

now, one can do much more creative things than a basic 1-4-5 chord pattern and a melody, and I used it simply because it was an easy example. 

hopefully this helps some, if this makes no sense please respond and i will do my best to clarify.

GuitarZen, don't apologize for starting at the beginning! As I've said before, I'm pretty advanced at music, I'm young, and haven't had that much experience at teaching. Sometimes I'll start saying something that takes a lot of music theory knowledge to understand and is probably too much information for the beginner who just wants to know enough to get started. I don't mean to, really! I hope that my previous posts have been helpful to people reading this thread, really if you ask different people they're going to have different answers, but it all ties into the big picture.

You're fine  madam mustard, not to worry. I was only trying to point modes in another direction and I was drawing on my lessons from here in chordbook is all. Yep, one gets 10 answers if one asks 10 ppl about music theory. And oh yes, you're posts are very helpful and have helped me a lot for one.  Thanks !

Cheers,

GuitarZen

Here's a little something that tOmboy_Rampag3 uncovered that pertains to this thread:

Old Tele Man posted this in the thread "Fundamentals Of Music Theory 101" on 2007-07-30 23:56. To me, this sums up modes really well and it's something I'll keep referring too if I forget the mode rules. Hope this helps.

IONIAN "mode" is simply the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C'...and is simply the notes of the C-scale.

..the term "mode" comes into play when we move "up" one note (to D) and play the exact same notes: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D' which *now* comprise the DORIAN mode.

...in other words, the IONIAN scale is the root/foundation; while the "modes" are the same notes just 'begun' on successively higher points:

        IONIAN = starts on C note of IONIAN scale, ends on C'
       DORIAN = starts on D note of IONIAN scale, ends on D'
    PHRYGIAN = starts on E note of IONIAN scale, ends on E'
        LYDIAN = starts on F note of IONIAN scale, ends on F'
MIXOLYDIAN = starts on G note of IONIAN scale, ends on G'
      AEOLIAN = starts on A note of IONIAN scale, ends on A'
      LOCRIAN = starts on B note of IONIAN scale, ends on B'

...that's the "modes" -- ie: same notes, just different "start / stop" notes. The accompanying CHORDS are different because of the changes in location of the half (h) and whole (w) intervals between notes, ie: E-to-F and B-to-C are halfstep (h) intervals, while all the others are wholestep (w) intervals. So, the respective chords created from each mode are different

        IONIAN = Major
       DORIAN = minor
  PHRYGRIAN = minor
        LYDIAN = Major
MIXOLYDIAN = Major
      AEOLIAN = minor
     LOCRIAN = diminished

Last edited by Old Tele man (2007-07-31 00:13)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

GuitarZen

...another explanation:

SCALES, MODES and Triad CHORDS

IONIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C
IONIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C
• IONIAN scale begins on the first (Root) note (C-note) of the scale and has the note sequence: W-W-H-W-W-W-H.
• IONIAN chord is constructed using the I(root), III(3rd) and V(5th) notes, where I is the C-note. These chord notes are spaced apart by ‘thirds’ -- that is, I-to-III (C-to-E) and the III-to-V (E-to-G) are intervals called stacked ‘thirds’.
• IONIAN is a MAJOR scale/chord, ie: C Major.

DORIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D
DORIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D
• DORIAN mode begins on the second (II) note (D-note) of the scale and has the sequence: W-H-W-W-W-H-W.
• DORIAN chord is constructed using the I, iii(minor 3rd) and V notes, where I is now the D-note. Here, the I-to-III ‘third’ has different spacing, a “minor" 1-1/2 steps between the I and III notes.
• DORIAN is a MINOR mode/chord, ie: D minor.

PHRYGIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E
PHRYGIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E
• PHRYGIAN mode begins on the third (III) note (E-note) of the scale and has the sequence: H-W-W-W-H-W-W.
• PHRYGIAN chord is constructed using the I, iii(minor 3rd) and V notes where I is now the E-note. Here, too, the I-to-III ‘third’ has the same “minor" 1-1/2 steps spacing between the I and III notes.
• PHRYGIAN is a MINOR mode/chord, ie: E minor.

LYDIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F
LYDIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F
• LYDIAN mode begins on the fourth (IV) note (F-note) of the scale and has the sequence: W-W-W-H-W-W-H.
• LYDIAN chord is constructed using the I, III and V notes where I is now the F-note (similar to IONIAN).
• LYDIAN is a MAJOR mode/chord, ie: F Major.

MIXOLYDIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G
MIXOLYDIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G
• MIXOLYDIAN mode begins on the fifth (V) note (G-note) of the scale and has the sequence: W-W-H-W-W-H-W.
• MIXOLYDIAN chord is constructed using the I, III and V notes where I is now the G-note (similar to IONIAN).
• MIXOLYDIAN is a MAJOR mode/chord, ie: G Major.

AEOLIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G....A
AEOLIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G....A
• AEOLIAN mode begins on the sixth (VI) note (A-note) of the scale and has the sequence: W-H-W-W-H-W-W.
• AEOLIAN chord is constructed using the I, iii(minor 3rd) and V notes where I is now the A-note.
• AEOLIAN is a MINOR mode/chord, ie: A minor.

LOCRIAN scale:  C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G....A....B
LOCRIAN chord: C....D....E.F....G....A....B.C....D....E.F....G....A....B
• LOCRIAN mode begins on the seventh (VII) note (B-note) of the scale and has the sequence: H-W-W-H-W-W-W.
• LOCRIAN chord is constructed using the I, iii(minor 3rd) and diminished V(b5) notes where I is now the B-note.
• LOCRIAN is a DIMINISHED mode/chord, ie: B diminished or B minor b5.

NOTES:
• W = whole step (two frets), H = half step (one fret).
• A ‘third’ interval (normal) is the musical spacing between the Root (I) and the III note, ie: I-to-II-to-III, which equates to the notes C-to-D-to-E in key of C.
• MAJOR interval: I-to-III, ie: C-to-E (2 whole steps)
• MINOR interval: I-to-iii, ie: C-to-Eb (1-1/2 steps)
• TRIAD (simple) chords contain 3-notes: I(R), III and V.
• TETRA (extended) chords contain 4-notes: I(R), III, V and VII.

...MODES are created from the Aeolian (key of C) SCALE, and the CHORDS created from the MODES comprise the "Harmonized Scale"...ie: a chord for/from each MODE.

Outstanding follow-up explanation OTM, thank you....and yet another post of yours
for my saved and archived theory notes.

Cheers,

GuitarZen